Nathan Barry 播客第150期访谈 Philip McKernan 论起源故事的价值

The story you leave out of your content could be the reason someone connects with your work.

I sat down with Philip McKernan, author of One Last Talk, who has helped Olympians and World Cup athletes and consulted with the US Army and the Pentagon. We get into why your origin story matters, how to recognise the gifts you undervalue, and why the fear that drives success can eventually become exhausting. Philip walks me through his framework connecting story, gift, and impact, then coaches me live through my discomfort with promoting my upcoming book. A simple drawing exercise leads to a challenge I wasn’t expecting about who I’m letting down by holding back.

If you’re building a personal brand but feel uncomfortable sharing your story or promoting your work, I think you’ll get a lot out of this conversation.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:00 The business pitch that needed a personal story
07:00 Philip’s own origin story
11:00 Helping an athlete reconnect with his purpose
17:00 Finding the gift you overlook
21:00 When fear-driven ambition becomes exhausting
24:00 Why I’m not afraid of my business disappearing
34:00 Buying a castle when business was down 95%
38:00 Building a better relationship with yourself
40:00 Why asking for help feels uncomfortable
43:00 Philip coaches me through a drawing exercise
47:00 The challenge I wasn’t expecting
54:00 Why being visible can feel frightening
57:00 An exercise to uncover your story
1:03:00 Understanding what your happiest days reveal
1:09:00 Learning from your darkest days
1:16:00 How sharing your story creates connection
1:18:00 Final thoughts and where to find Philip

Highlights:

02:00 The business pitch that needed a personal story
21:00 When fear-driven ambition becomes exhausting
43:00 Philip coaches me live
47:00 Why we undervalue our own work
57:00 An exercise to uncover your story

Transcript:

[00:00:00] (588) AI Can’t Copy This: Why Every Creator Needs an Origin Story in 2026 – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lALLm8YRP3Y

Transcript:
(00:00) Sharing your story is not a burden. We use that as an excuse so we don’t have to share our story. [music] >> My guest today is Philip Mccernin, author of One Last Talk. He’s helped Olympians, World Cup athletes, and even consulted with the US Army [music] and the Pentagon. Philip explains that your origin story is your most compelling asset.
(00:18) The most compelling way to connect authentically with people and help them feel something in themselves is to share a part of our origin story. And a lot of us leave those origin stories behind, and I think that’s a mistake. Philip walks us through the soul set process which breaks down the overlap of story, gift, and impact. >> My experiences with creatives is that they don’t put a value in what they do naturally.
(00:38) They’re too busy trying to put a value in what they think the world wants from them. >> I have to share this with other people. I felt like I had discovered something incredible. Like, do you know this? You’ll see him do this exercise with me live, including a moment where he has me draw a picture of my ideal avatar. [music] >> Can we get a blank page? >> Yeah.
(00:53) I was having this hang-up where I needed to ask people for help with promoting my new book and I was feeling anxious because I do not want to be a burden on them. >> How selfish of you not to ask people for help because you are abandoning this poor man. How selfish of you. >> This is actually episode [music] 150 on the show and I couldn’t think of a better episode to celebrate this milestone with.
(01:12) >> There’s a saying that I say your greatest gift lies right next to your deepest wound. >> If you want to learn what it is you’re put on this earth to do, this is the best episode on the show to watch. Philip, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It’s basically impossible to describe what you do, but we’ve known each other for about eight years, and I think of you as someone that people come to when they need clarity.
(01:34) >> And we’re going to talk today about storytelling and how that matters so much as an entrepreneur. But let’s dive in right there. Why does knowing your story and and sharing your origin story matters so much as an entrepreneur? >> I think it matters on so many levels when it comes to parenting, comes to leadership, it comes to business.
(01:51) Um, if I may kick off with a story, I think that illustrates it best, is I was invited to be part of this Shark Tank Dragon’s Den uh, competition where entrepreneurs would come along, they’d pitch their business to three entrepreneurs at a table, and we would help critique their business, you know, pitch.
(02:09) And then the whole goal would be to get to the final. And if they got to the final, they get on the main stage, deliver their pitch one last time, and then they either win or they don’t. And if they were if they were picked and they’d win, they would get like, you know, injection of capital, they got marketing support, mentorship, etc. Anyway, this poor >> there’s a lot at stake.
(02:26) >> There’s a lot of stake and and this beautifully young man came up and he was petrified. He did this, he was shaking and it was his first time pitching and myself and two entrepreneurs to my right and he pitched his business and the first entrepreneur said, “Listen, I loved your pitch.
(02:40) I just loved to have seen a few more numbers to really get a sense of the business and the projections.” And he goes, “Oh, great.” And he’s making a note and she was very gracious. The next one said, “Love, love the pitch. Well done. And I just love to have seen more information on marketing and how you’re going to, you know, you know, put this out to the world and draw clients in.
(02:59) ” And then it came to me and I just looked at him and I said, “I don’t get it.” >> And this poor young man looked at me and said, “Uh, what part?” And I said, “The whole thing.” And he goes, “But but what what do you mean?” And I said, “Really? You want to build a gym and multiple gyms? Does the world really need another gym? And meanwhile, the two entrepreneurs were looking at me going, “Who is this ass?” Right? [laughter] >> But I could feel something.
(03:24) My my intuition was telling me there was a reason that he wanted to build a gym and create a franchise and bring this out to the world. And he looked at me and I said, “But why you?” And he goes, “Well, my personal story, you know, doesn’t matter.” And I said, “Well, it matters to me.” Mhm. >> And he paused for a moment and then he looked at me with this combination of sadness, anger and and possibility.
(03:50) And then finally he said, “My parents left when I was a baby. When I was a young boy and I grew up with my grandmother and she meant the world to me and when she passed away from a disease related to obesity, my life fell apart >> so badly that I went to prison.” And he with tears rolling down his face, Nathan, he goes, “And no one should lose somebody prematurely to something that can be prevented.
(04:21) ” >> I look over to my right and the first entrepreneur is just >> Yeah. >> just rolling. >> The next entrepreneur is crying. I didn’t start crying because I’d already been crying. And the guy himself was crying. And then he goes, “But you’re you’re you’re not you’re not suggesting that I bring that into my pitch.
(04:40) ” I went, “Oh, no. Don’t do that.” Like, why would you do that? It’s the only most compelling reason that you were on this mission. Why on earth would you bring that into your pitch? And I won’t tell you exactly the language I used. I said, “You’ll be an effing idiot.” He brought it into his pitch. He got to the final.
(04:58) And when he pitched his business next to the two entrepreneurs that were in the final alongside him, he was picked by every single judge. Some of the best >> best entrepreneurs that have ever come out of America were sitting there judging this man. And when they were asked, why did you all pick him? They all said in one form or another, he had the most compelling reason to start this business.
(05:20) >> And he won the competition outright. So that’s a practical example of why your origin story matters. And you may not think you have an origin story that is quite as dramatic like that, but we all have origin stories and a lot of us leave those origin stories behind. And I think that’s a mistake. >> I mean, it’s so clear to me how much that matters, especially because, you know, I do cry easily, but it’s one of the things, you know, I am like so emotionally invested in your retelling of his story, >> right? But especially for content
(05:48) creators, right? We are storytellers. we get up and we talk and and everyone listening has businesses where they tell stories and and often they’ll say, “Oh, no. I I tell the stories of the transformations I create in my clients or I do these other things.” It’s like, “Okay, but but why do you do it?” >> Yeah.
(06:03) >> And so to dig into that is so important. >> It is critical and there’s there’s always a reason and there’s always an opportunity to reorientate your business to connect it to the reason that you’re doing it. You didn’t just wake up and decide to be a creator one day. You were born a creator and you’ve become a creator and you’re creating something and there’s probably a meaning behind it that you have and you hold it secretly to yourself or you have an opportunity to share with the world and people there’s a saying and forgive me I can’t
(06:28) remember who came up with this beautiful saying and you may remember but people will forget what you do they’ll even forget what you say but they will never forget how you make them feel and I think the most compelling way to connect authentically with people and help them feel something in themselves is to share a part of our origin story >> to allow other people to see your humanity but also experience and feel theirs.
(06:50) >> Something that stands out to me that you said is why you, right? You’re saying this to that entrepreneur? >> And in every business there’s a dozen people that we could hire, a dozen different businesses, you know, brands we could buy from and all of that. And I think everyone is asking like, okay, but why you over everyone else? >> Maybe the first question is like why you, right? you know, and putting it back on you of uh what’s what’s your origin story that brings you to wanting to do this work? >> Yeah. I mean, I’ll I’ll give you the
(07:21) short version of it. And I think that the shortest version I can give you is is you there’s kind of there’s so many different nuances, but I remember sitting in classroom one day feeling incredibly isolated and lonely and a teacher looked at me and she said she she asked me to read and I’m dyslexic, so reading was a challenge.
(07:37) And and I said, “Miss, I I would rather not read.” And I was actually I remember being quite polite. I was actually quite a nice kid despite the rumors. And um she said, “Oh, another excuse.” And she looked at me and she said, “You know what? I don’t even know why you come in here.” And she pointed straight at my face.
(07:53) I don’t know why you bother coming to school. And then she went over to the window and she says, “You don’t do anything in here and you’re going to mean nothing out there.” Wow. And even like even as I say that, I can still feel the emotion because I absolutely believed every word that came out of her mouth.
(08:11) And I believed it for a very very very long time. And what I decided to do was I put on the burners, the jet burners, and I was going to make sure no matter what, I was going to prove her wrong. And the idea was I thought about meeting her on the street one day. And when I wasn’t successful, I didn’t want to bump into her.
(08:31) But when I started to have some success, I then I wanted to bump into her. And I wanted to take her that finger that she was pointing at me and I honestly wanted to flip the finger and you know what I wanted to do and and point it back at her and say f you look what I’ve done with my life until one day I remember waking up going it was one of the most beautiful moments and it was you know we say these things I woke up one day and and it’s never really one day but on this occasion it literally was one day and I woke up and I just
(08:58) asked myself a different question. what was going on in her life >> that she had to take me out or knock me to the ground or grind me into dust because that’s what it felt like at the time. So my origin story was a lot of isolation, a lot of loneliness and my mission if you like hidden is I want to eradicate loneliness for as many people as I can as I can before I die.
(09:20) And I do that through helping them connect to meaningful work that brings them alive, connecting to themselves, through their origin story so they understand who they are and why they’re on this planet and connecting to the people around them because I don’t think it’s about deepening relationships in the traditional sense.
(09:35) I think a lot of us struggle with relationships because we don’t allow people in. It’s not about going out and finding someone to love. It’s about allowing somebody to see you, all of you, and allowing them in. And to me, that is if I can do that and help people do that. Loneliness doesn’t have the oxygen and the place to actually survive.
(09:51) And to me, that’s why I’m on this earth and that’s my mission. >> Did it take you a long time to come to that realization like or was that early in your your journey as an entrepreneur? >> Nathan, I am incredibly slow. Incredibly slow. So, in a way, it took it feels like it took me a lifetime >> and I could have gotten there sooner, but in another way, as cliche as it might sound, I honestly think that it wouldn’t mean as much to me if I got there too soon.
(10:17) So I think I had to get there over a longer period of time. Um but no, I think I think it was a pretty slow process for me. >> Okay. So I want to fill in a few of these circles up on the board. >> Yeah. >> So Philip, the Dragon Sense story clearly shows like why sharing your story matters, but I feel like there’s so much more to it than just oh this is my origin story.
(10:35) Like what is this framework and and how do you dive into working through it? >> Yeah. So at the top it’s it’s your story which we we’ve touched on. Maybe what I’ll do is I’ll walk you through a real life example. You know, we’re in the middle of the World Cup right now. It’s coming to the end. It’s in the United States and and obviously in Mexico and Canada.
(10:54) And I’ll give you a a story from an athlete that I’ve I’ve worked with and gotten to know very very well. And it’s it’s a beautiful story because it just shows what’s possible for us. And I work with entrepreneurs and I work with with athletes as well. And the crossovers and really they’re the same the same thing. But a young man walked into a room not dissimilar to this.
(11:11) And uh I was work I’m working with a club in Colorado, professional uh MLS club. He sits down in front of me and he said um so yeah, nice to meet you. And I said, “Great. Why are you here?” And he said to my surprise, he said, “I want to know about entrepreneurship.” Now, this guy’s not at the end of his career like Messi.
(11:27) This guy is just starting out. He’s in his early 20s. And I’m thinking, you want to talk about entrepreneurship? And my intuition again was telling me, I got to call BS on this. And I said, “You want to talk about entrepreneurship because you’re interested in entrepreneurship, or you’re afraid that you can’t and will not quite make it as a soccer player.
(11:45) ” >> To which he kind of sat back and went, “Oh, that’s the way it works in this room. You’re actually going to challenge me, >> right?” >> And he said, “Well, look at my life right now. It’s not exactly going very well. I’ve just been bought, you know, from a different club where I was ostracized and sitting in the in the stands.
(12:02) I wasn’t even allowed to train with the team. I was bought brought to this club with promises of playing and I haven’t even got a minute and I’m not even on the bench and I’m not being picked. So, I’m keeping my options open. And I said, why don’t we forget about entrepreneurship and we just talk about football as we call it in Europe.
(12:16) And we did and we continue to talk about it. But I remember the the first thing he said to me is when I when I finally got him to let go of this entrepreneurship thing, he said, “Okay, great. Let’s let’s let’s do it your way. Where do we start?” and he thought I was going to talk about psychology or performance or watch some of his videos of him playing and I just said tell me your story and he goes yeah he says I started playing soccer when I was like eight and I well I went to this college and I said I’m not asking about what you’ve done I want
(12:46) to know who you are and he said to me you like you want me to start like when I was a kid I said yeah and he said well it was tough I grew up in a really poor neighborhood in in Philadelphia. I had, you know, you know, we were poor and and I racism to deal with and I had loneliness and I had all this different stuff.
(13:07) And we started to build this this this story and I started to get to know this young beautiful human being. And I eventually said to him, “What’s the dream?” And he said, “Well, now that I’m connecting with it, suppose the dream would be to in some way, shape or form in the future come back and help kids like myself in Philadelphia.” And I said,”Great.
(13:24) ” I said, “Why wait?” He goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “Why wait? they’re watching you now. >> So, he started to play football and the way I would interpret that is he started to play football with with a a reason to play >> more than just himself. >> He was thinking about once I achieve either my football career and aspirations or if that doesn’t work out, which is looking like it’s not going to work out, >> then I’m going to become an entrepreneur somehow I’m going to make money. Yeah.
(13:50) And then once I make money, I can go back and I can help >> eight-year-old me. Yeah. back in my hometown. >> And I honestly believe because the difference at that level between an athlete, one athlete and another, it’s it’s it’s minuscule. I mean, tactically and technically and and physically >> is an intuition and a freedom.
(14:09) And I think when when I work with entrepreneurs or athletes, it’s about helping them play with freedom is is the big one. >> But ultimately, his his short-term goal was to get to Europe, which he finally achieved. And he got to Europe. And that was like the pinnacle. That was the biggest.
(14:23) But I kept harping on about what’s the next one? What’s the next one? What’s the next one? And the next one was to play for his national team, the United States. But meanwhile, keep reminding him all of the time that people are watching. People are watching. People are watching. Not >> you’re having your impact right now. >> You’re having the impact.
(14:38) >> And um you know, that is the the power of of connecting with your story. Even the parts of your story which we’ll talk about later on that you don’t want to talk about, that you’re you’re ashamed of or you’re embarrassed by or they they’re painful. That’s fuel that can drive you in a really positive way.
(14:56) And he has gone on to do extraordinary things. The dream became playing for the national team. And I remember the day that he was picked to play for his the national team for the United States. And then it was announced that the World Cup was coming to America as one of the host nations.
(15:12) And the dream became, would that be a possibility? Like what if I what if I went to the World Cup in my own home country, >> right? >> And he was picked for the team. and they’re like, “What if I play and then what if I score?” >> Okay. >> And it was about 10 days ago, he scored his first international goal for the United States.
(15:30) When he scored, it was such a stunning goal by anybody’s standards, but he’s a defender, so he’s not like a a goal scorer. >> Yeah. That’s not the the group of people on the team that scored goals. when he scored, apart from going absolutely ballistic, myself jumping up and down and screaming, it just didn’t surprise me because this young man, he’s got his own spiritual beliefs and things like that, which I won’t get into right now, but he just he’s playing for it.
(15:53) He’s just playing for something that sits just beyond who he is. >> And therefore, I think he possesses something that a lot of other people just don’t. And I think that’s available to all of us. What what’s the contrast from when you saw him play when he was sitting across the table from you in a room to who you saw score a goal in the World Cup? Playing with purpose.
(16:15) >> He’s playing he’s on a he’s on a he’s on a mission but but not frenetic. He’s not he’s not burning bridges and burning burning his life to get to something. It’s not like this insatiable drive. It’s a calmness with a it’s actually a knowing. >> Okay. It’s a sense of knowing I’m good enough. I can do this. I will do this.
(16:37) >> And I think that comes from just a deep sense of trust, which a lot of in my experience, a lot of creatives and a lot of entrepreneurs that I meet, they don’t really back themselves. They’ll back themselves intellectually, but emotionally they just don’t trust who they are. But his story has created the fuel >> for so much of his surface success, but it’s it’s much more than that.
(16:58) >> Okay. So to complete this this framework here, what else do I write in here? >> Yeah, so we’ve got story up here which is kind of the the top which is the key and then we have gift in here. >> Okay, what do you mean by gift? >> Well, I mean a lot of people would write down talent and I think for many people I I believe the the example I use is my wife because technically she’s not here so I can kind of use her story.
(17:20) Uh but my wife was an accountant and she is the worst accountant in the world simply because not because she doesn’t understand spreadsheets and not because she doesn’t understand numbers but because she was never put on this planet to be an accountant. Like trust me that was just not her thing. If you understand her origin story you realize that she grew up in a pretty poor you know background.
(17:40) She wanted to escape where she was living. And I don’t [clears throat] mean that in a negative way towards her family but she wanted to get out of this rural environment. >> You know her sister was an accountant and she was pretty decent with numbers. So you know she added it together and you know accountants get paid well. So your origin story can drive you in a really positive way or it can drive you to achieve things that ultimately won’t work and they won’t matter in the future.
(18:01) So the gift the difference between a talent and a gift is talent is something that can be learned like the soccer player like the young man we’re speaking about. But the gift you know there’s a saying that I say your greatest gift lies right next to your deepest wound. And his wound was and my wound was loneliness.
(18:17) his wound was, you know, poverty, judgment, or whatever. But through the lens of shining a light on his story, the gift that emerged for him is his ability to affect change in people similar to him in environments that he was stuck in. So they can believe if he can get out, I can get >> if he can do something with his life, perhaps I can too.
(18:37) So I think a lot of us spend our lives executing our talents and never honoring our gifts. >> And to me, I think that’s a tragedy. So he started to get in touch with this gift through the lens of some awkward conversations. And that’s where purpose starts to come in. That’s where aligning who you are and what you do every day towards something.
(18:55) And then realizing that we’re all stewards of something. >> We’re stewards of something. Like we bought a medieval castle on the west coast of Ireland, random thing as as it is. And people go, “What’s it like to own a castle?” And I don’t feel like we own a castle. I feel that we are stewards of a place for a very short space of time.
(19:14) And that energy, it feels so beautiful. It feels so abundant. So he feels that he’s a steward of the talent that he has and he’s created with the giftedness that he also has inside of him and to use that for good. You brought up a quote which is in your book uh one last talk and it’s the quote that you have on the inside cover which is your greatest gift lies next to your deepest wound and this is a quote that I have thought about really a lot in my life and it it took me through a lot of times of trying to find purpose.
(19:41) Why do I do what I do? And coming back to my story, I realized, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs have this of like growing up in an environment where >> money is very scarce. And and my biggest thing is I always felt like it was a burden on other people. >> And so when I learned that making money is a skill or a collection of skills that can be learned, it was like this incredible unlock. And I was like, “Oh, wow.
(20:02) I can, >> you know, I have to share this with other people.” I felt like I had discovered something incredible. I was like, “Do you know this?” And then you know when you learn about how an audience can give you this incredible leverage that like I just became so so excited. >> But in order to find it I like it was that quote of you know what your greatest gift lies next to your deepest wound.
(20:23) And it was all of the the pain from childhood of just feeling like oh man if I wasn’t here then my family could afford these things. They could have these different experiences that sort of like I am just a burden. And I think old me would have run away from that and hidden and not even ever uncovered that. >> Yeah. >> Um but really in digging it out then as you know you said like the purpose and alignment.
(20:42) >> Um and even the stewardship right something where I feel like so many of the ideas in my life and work it’s like they’re not even mine. I’m just a I’m just a steward of you know and that’s how I feel about you know people would say oh when are you going to sell the company? I’m like I don’t there’s an element of me that I don’t even feel like it’s mine to sell.
(21:02) I’m just like a steward of the impact that we have with it for this period of time. >> Well, it’s clear to me that you’ve clearly done work. How you’ve done the work, where you’ve done the work, whether it’s self-directed or otherwise is it’s not relevant for today, but but I could have sent you because there’s a there’s an energy that you talk about your background that it’s integrated and I often find that >> people are either in reaction to their past or in relationship to it.
(21:25) And I work with a lot of entrepreneurs who just are d they’ve come from poverty. I’ve worked with athletes who come from poverty. >> Y >> and there is no greater drive than the fear of going back. >> Right. >> But what I would say there’s a caveat to a point. So running from what you don’t want is great.
(21:44) But here’s the absolute reality of it is that that energy runs out. >> That energy takes too much from you. That energy is exhausting. and that there is a point in life where you can just pause and say, “Okay, I’ve outrun the monster, the fear of going back to poverty, whatever it is. How do I reorientate towards something that I want to build?” And that is one of the most courageous moments in an entrepreneur’s or creative journey is to stop out running what you don’t want and moving towards what you do want.
(22:14) And the way I would contextualize that is you’re running on diesel fuels >> or diesel fuel. And you the idea is to run to move to hybrid and then to move on to electric, a cleaner fuel. And that the the the reason that most people don’t make that transition when I get close to their origin story and we start working on this is they go don’t take my story away.
(22:35) You’re not don’t get near my story. This story has driven me. Look at all the data. Look what I’ve created in my life. >> It served me very very well. It served me beautifully. If you take this away, you’re taking away my drive. And in my experience, it is the opposite. >> When you start to orientate towards something that’s cleaner, pure, you play with freedom as a soccer player, you play with freedom as an entrepreneur, you play with freedom as a parent, and you start making decisions that feel truly and deeply aligned to who you are.
(23:08) And you become unapologetic as a leader. and you become deeply deeply focused and invariably in my experience is impact starts to creep in in a different way. >> So it’s the opposite of what mo most people think >> and that’s that the last circle there is impact >> is impact. [clears throat] >> There’s something I’ll write this and then talk about it.
(23:31) Uh there’s a freedom with it that I think sometimes scares me and uh scares people on my team if I’m being honest. So, we’re in a a period of massive change, right, with AI and every every business and industry is being shaken up in a big way. People have said it’s like the industrial revolution times the invention of the internet like happening right now.
(23:52) And so, we’re watching new businesses spring up and and just as many die off and cease to exist. >> And so, there’s an incredible amount of fear around it. And I had conversations with a few people on my team and they’re like, you’re not you don’t seem afraid at all. And what I and so we’ve had a lot of conversations about it and part of it is I feel like we have a really clear plan >> for we’re very clear on what the impact we’re going to have in the world and how our adoption of AI is going to further that.
(24:19) >> But I had this realization through these conversations that it could all disappear and I would be just fine. Like I actually don’t fear going back >> because I know that even if you know a company doing tens of millions of dollars a year in revenue like disappeared overnight, I don’t think I’d have any regrets over not selling it or not taking money out or that sort of thing.
(24:44) Like I I know at a basic level >> I know that my family is taken care of, but I know that building the company is not my work. My work is helping creators earn a living and no longer be a burden and showing them that there’s these skills and tools out there. And I know that if my current vessel for that disappears, >> yeah, >> there will be another one.
(25:01) >> So that’s the key. There will be another vessel. There’ll be another way to do the same thing where I think a lot of people and that’s why I said why not? Why are you not afraid? >> Why are you not afraid? And a lot of people watching this listening to this in the future might make make an assumption.
(25:17) and we go, “Oh, well, it’s easy for you to say you’ve got millions in the bank. You’ve this, this, and this.” I don’t. People have said to me, “Oh, it’s easy for you to do what you do.” I started doing this work when I had $200 in the bank account. We were completely and utterly wiped out and we were underwater to hundreds of thousands of euros.
(25:32) And I decided to start a business in a foreign country in Canada. And we bought a medieval castle when the middle of COVID when our business just slightly affected. It was only down 95%. >> Only only that >> only 95%. And we have a very modest boutique coaching business. And but what you’re sharing there is so so beautiful and so fascinating that even if this is taken away your identity is not locked and attached to it which most of us get suck sucked into that piece.
(25:59) Could you just elaborate a little bit more if you don’t mind because what you’re sharing you’re sharing it so simply but I think it’s so profound. It’s more profound than anything I’ll share here today genuinely. How do you how have you gotten to a point where there’s you care but you’re detached to some extent that if this goes away which it most likely won’t because you have a plan and you know the impact you’re going to make but there’s going to be another vessel like how do you get to that place? What have you what process what how how do you think like that?
(26:23) Well, I think if you go back to more things as a kid, uh, a like recurring nightmare that I had as a kid was always seeing myself in third person, like from an altitude in some way and then bad things happening in some way. You know, it could be like chased by a wild animal or whatever, but that was always the format of the nightmares that I had.
(26:44) >> And to the point where I would, you know, if I sense like starting to view things from a a third party lens, that was scary. I had to be in it otherwise it was a scary thing. Now I feel like I can like that is a tool that I can use and I can >> step outside of whatever is happening and observe it from the third party and go oh however that plays out like >> I I don’t know exactly how to describe it but it it um detached is the wrong word >> but it’s very much it’s like a different altitude and so the thing that I feel is
(27:18) like being able to play with this relaxed feeling and uh I heard Jason Freed talk about this of like when he was learning to play the drums, he’s gripping the drumsticks and his instructor’s like, “You’re never going to be good until you learn to hold them loosely.” Now, I struggle with this all the time >> where I end up in this other world where it’s easy to fall into the oh, if we do this and a competitor does it better and what if we don’t win this customer and you know, you’re in a competitive landscape and all of that and I have to
(27:49) keep reminding myself like that’s okay. Actually, I think the clearest example of this is is actually Elon Musk >> where he which as far as clean fuel, dirty fuel, like you get into a whole thing of how he fuels himself as an entrepreneur and I I don’t think a lot of it is healthy, but something that he says he’s like, “Look, our mission is around clean energy, around electric cars, around all this.
(28:14) ” People like, “What if Toyota or Mercedes comes in and does this?” And he’s like, “Okay, they’re just furthering our mission.” you know, he’s like, “We don’t have patents for anything, you know, like it’s all open source.” >> And so, I try to stay in this place, and I’m not always there >> of when uh a content creator that we serve is on our platform versus someone else’s to be able to say whatever makes them most successful.
(28:38) >> And so long as they’re if they’re really really successful on a competitor, that’s great. Like, that competitor is helping us achieve our mission. And that’s what I I want to come back to in a minute. Before I do, >> what you’re describing to me as I as I stand here listening to you. >> Um, and it’s not, you’re right, it’s not detached because detach makes it feel and sound like you just don’t care where it’s actually the opposite.
(29:02) You care deeply and you care enough, but it’s almost like you hold it. So there’s this there’s this there was I think it was a therapist showed me this the first time. I can’t remember, but this is as AI comes into the world, this what it feels like. It’s like, hold on tight. Grip as tight as you can.
(29:18) No matter what, we’re going to burst through this and we’re going to just as as AI comes into the world, we’re going to double down and we’re going to And as I hold that, imagine that’s a seed or whatever. Yeah, you might get some moisture in there, but there’s no light. And what most people think is when they when we ask them to to to let go is they think like this.
(29:34) Well, I need to I need to let it go. And what I’m thinking is no, it’s like this. >> You hold what you do in your hand. You hold the possibility, but you let go of the grip and the tightness attached to it, which is back to the drumsticks as you talked about. Yeah. And I think about I don’t know if it’s a timeline or how you would express it, but you know, if you think about I don’t know there’s there’s uh this line here and it’s like we have a customer and they’re right here and our product is going to get them to here, right? And we’re trying to achieve this goal and it
(30:05) really matters that we win the sale and this happens. But we can forget about the fact that the goal is to make it like somewhere along here is the goal of not helping this customer but helping creators earn a living and helping anybody that we could serve, right? And then if you go even further, the goal is making sure that you know the the equivalent of the the kid back in Philadelphia, right? Or in my case the you know the 10-year-old up at living up in the mountains watching his parents fight about money again. like that he
(30:37) [snorts] feels like he’s not a burden. And so then you start to think, you know what, if like I’m very attached to I’m gonna help this person in this way and all of that. Yeah. And if someone else is like, “No, we’re actually helping this person over here.” And then it ultimately gets it’s like I don’t have to be the one to achieve that for people.
(30:56) uh if I get to that’s a huge privilege but it’s it’s zooming out at a different altitude and seeing it for the big picture instead of the very specific outcome of like did we win this deal or >> um build this feature or something. >> What would a 10-year-old back then think about who you are today? Oh, he’d be he’d be blown away.
(31:16) Like he would not I mean there are so many days you we we can get into this later but right the happiest days are all the number of times now that I go I cannot believe my life >> is just wild. >> Yeah. Before we get on to and we’re going to be moving on to this but I think a lot of us struggle with that. Um and and I’m I’m guilty with this.
(31:34) I’m not great at stopping and appreciating but so the last couple of days you know we’re we’re in Boise, Idaho. >> Um I’m staying with you. I was in the gym with you this morning and your son. >> Uh last week I was um Mike Reed and Daniel Priestley invited me into their organization to work uh with a with a big cohort of people on their origin story.
(31:57) And then in between I’m driving through the mountains of Montana in Yellow Knife and then I’m here and you know I just I I found myself on occasion just driving through the mountains just smiling going is this the life that I get to live and have created and everything else. And I look back and I think about my 10-year-old often. Um, I used to because I would have thought it was just fluff and but I think about my 10-year-old often and the particularly the young boy that was pointed out in the classroom and the teacher that, you know, made me feel
(32:22) like I was a piece of and I was worth nothing and would amount to nothing. I’m thinking, you know what, I’ve done okay. I’ve done okay. >> Yeah. >> How important is it for you to be clear with all the changes that are happening? Because you said earlier on, we’re really clear on the impact we want to make.
(32:39) I don’t need to necessarily hear what the details are, unless you want to share parts of it, but how important is that to have that as a north star to orientate towards that amongst all of the changes that’s going on? >> I think it’s incredibly important. And every time I lose sight of this and I start to to think about a short-term timeline, >> yeah, >> then I get stressed, I get anxious, I start to grip the drumsticks and I’m like, “Okay, what if this happens? What if someone invents a better way of achieving this goal than we do?” And, you know, and all of that. And uh it’s
(33:08) not that I want my business business to disappear in any way, you know, but that gets me, you know, okay, talking about kids, uh my oldest is 14 and a half. And in Idaho, you get to get your driver’s permit at 14 and a half, which is wild. >> That’s scary. [laughter] >> Okay, so he has his permit.
(33:28) He’s driving now. He’s actually like really a good driver. I’m quite impressed. But one of the things that you have to work with all new drivers on is they want to stay in the lanes, right? And so they look right here in front of the car. >> Yeah. >> Right. They’re looking at the next deal they’re trying to close or whatever else.
(33:44) And what happens when you do that is you’re like doing this and it’s terrifying as a passenger because you’re like, >> “Okay, I need you to look way down the road. I need you to look as far as you can see down the road practically, you know? I need you to look through the curves. Don’t look at the curve.” Like you’re going to drive right into a barrier if you do that.
(34:00) like I need you to look through the curves. And so I think that being really clear on these things, your story, your gift, and then ultimately your impact, why you’re doing it, is what allows you to look far down the road, see through the curves, and as things come up, you’re like, >> you can start to you have a different perspective.
(34:18) You can start to see, >> oh, that is something that I I need to address in the process of where we’re going, or like that’s not even going to matter. Like, >> we’re driving 50 miles an hour. That’s I’m not even going to think about that again in about three seconds. Yeah. Um, it’s going to pass right back. >> What’s coming up for me is is about about seven years ago, we came across this medieval castle in Ireland in an area I’ve been running retreats in for forever.
(34:41) And this little castle buried in the mountain which has the most extraordinary origin story, which it maybe is not for today. Um, became came up for sale and it was the middle of co our business was down 95% and I looked at it online and I shut down the computer and said that’s ridiculous. And then I looked at it again. I said that’s ridiculous.
(34:56) And then about a month later, I opened it up and I called my wife and she walked into the room and I said, “Can you imagine?” And I turned my laptop towards her and instantaneous she said, “Yeah.” [laughter] And long story short, we flew back to Ireland. We had our masks on. We walked into the castle. There was rats and bats and mold and and everything.
(35:14) It was just horrendous. The grounds were in bits. And uh we just I made an offer. I just it was instantaneous. I had to make an offer. And I didn’t know how I was going to figure it out and now I was going to pay for it and I knew it was going to take a ton of time and a ton of energy and if you want to lean over and touch my soft hands these hands had never seen a hard day’s labor in their life.
(35:32) So I have no idea what to do but I became obsessed with creating a safe place for people to come from all over the world to heal to grow and to go back out into the world and make the biggest impact they can make in the world. And I remember one of the greatest moments of doubt and there were there were many but there was a moment of doubt and I have a a kind of slogan if you want to call it be brave you matter.
(35:54) And I think cou courageousness, I think being courageous is one of the most beautiful things that we can give our children or inspire our children to believe. I think courage is the gateway to clarity. It’s not clarity and then courage. It’s courage always first. And I remember looking at my now 14, 15year-old, which I can’t imagine her driving by the way, not no disrespect to her [laughter] if she listens to this or watches.
(36:14) Um, but I remember her looking and she said, “Daddy, you okay?” And I said, “Maggie, I’m really I just don’t know if I can complete this project. I just I’m so out of my depth.” and she would have been probably 11. And she said, “Dad, is this place going to be important to people?” >> And I said, “Yeah.
(36:30) ” And then she looked me in the eyes. She said, “Dad, be brave. This matters.” [laughter] And I just started crying. And I stood up and I said, I said, “It does, and it will, and we’re going to finish this off.” And it took us six years to restore this place. But because it was for other people, that’s what that’s what drove me every day.
(36:55) And when I tried to impart my vision of what this place needed to be onto it too deep, like too aggressively, >> the castle and the grounds would push back and say, “No, thank you very much.” But when we would stand back and go, “What do you need to create this as the most beautiful place in the world for people to come and grow and for leaders to come and grow?” And then we would just get ideas and people say to me, “God, you’re so amazing.
(37:16) Look what you’ve done.” I go, “I’d love to take credit, but honestly, I think this place was guiding us.” >> Yeah. And that’s an example of like in the timeline, >> right? If you’re thinking about, okay, how are we going to get this done? What decision do I make right here? But then if you’re just thinking about, okay, how is this these grounds, this castle, the thing that we’re creating going to serve people? And then like >> let it come from there.
(37:37) >> Yeah, totally. >> Now, you have these other you have overlaps in the circles. Yeah, >> let’s talk about that. Really the the the this is really about self. This is about you as an individual. Um and this is about you know the work that we do in the world >> and this is about others. This is about relationships essentially.
(38:00) This is about the relationship to yourself. And I think a lot of us forget that. I believe leaving you know spirituality aside even though I think you know relationships are very spiritual by nature. I think the relationship with ourselves. A lot of entrepreneurs don’t really like who they are.
(38:15) Um they’re very harsh on themselves. They punish themselves. They berate themselves. And again, they have this narrative that that pushes them to get them so far. And I would argue that it’ll get you so far. But I think to build a healthy relationship where you’re comfortable in your own skin, that you can sit in the car without the radio on, that you can be on your own and eat in a restaurant without feeling awkward, I think, is a representation of a journey to build a relationship with yourself. That’s important.
(38:37) And then the invitation is to bring your gift into the into the essentially into the work you do and create an impact. And I think that’s the holy grail for a lot of people is that how do you do work in the world that makes an impact and rather than waiting like this adult or sorry excuse me this this athlete did how do you bring this in sooner to bring impact into your work every single day.
(38:56) And I think when when you have a bad day in my experience when you have a bad day a bad week or a bad month or even a bad year you’ve got to be able to access a deeper well. You’ve got to be able to access something that that is deeper and beyond you. And I think for me is that when you the work you do in the world has impact buried into it, you’re actually doing it for somebody else.
(39:15) >> I’m not very good at asking for help, but when we built, you know, an orphanage in Peru many years ago, I was the best asker on the on the planet for about six months until we raised the money we needed and then we built it. So you you want if I if I was to ask for somebody else, no problem.
(39:32) as long as I believe in the mission. But to ask for me, it’s really really difficult. The same principle applies is that building impact in really gives us an opportunity to dig into something else and to and to to drive and to move through difficult situations um and access some sort of, you know, momentum. >> I’m glad that you brought that up because something that I’m working on right now is I have my first book that I’ve written in more than a decade coming out in six months.
(39:55) And so I’m at this place where as an author, you need to ask for help, >> right? And I have lots of friends, you know, who would love to help. And I feel really, really awkward about asking. It feels like I’m asking for a favor and all this. Like, will you help promote your book, my book? Can I come on your podcast? You know, any of those things.
(40:12) And I’m just like, >> each time I think about it, I cringe. I’m like, what if they think of me as needy? What if they think about me as taking? What if they think about me >> as a burden? >> Yeah. >> And I’m like, oh, >> which which comes back to comes back to the story, you know, you’re just like, >> oo, nope. Can’t do that. Can’t do that.
(40:29) And I had a friend who I was talking through this with and he said okay well why’d you write the book? Did you write it for you? And I was like no I know these things you know and I I wrote it because I deeply believe in the impact that this book will have and how you know the book is the ladders of wealth how to master the skill of making money and that because money is the goal.
(40:49) It’s because this freedom is the goal and and this feeling of like oh I can actually achieve what I want to achieve and I’m trying to give people that roadmap. M >> and he was like, “So, are you asking for you or are you asking for someone else?” >> Like, “Oh, okay. I’m asking for their help in order to help, like in order to have this impact on the world.
(41:08) ” And it completely reframed everything. I went from a spreadsheet of people I knew, I had relationships with that gave me anxiety. I would look at that and be like, “Okay, I hope this doesn’t feel like calling in a favor or asking or they don’t think of me as a burden to, oh man, what a privilege.” >> Yeah.
(41:25) that I get to bring my friends along in this thing that I think is wildly important. >> There was a beautiful [clears throat] clip of Gene Hackman, the actor. >> Yeah. >> And someone asked him a question about his father leaving and his father left in this really unusual way where his father got in the car, drove down the road, waved to him or gave him a nod and then just drove and he was gone.
(41:47) >> He never saw him again. And Gina Hackman was asked this question. It’s his most beautiful he was an incredible actor in my opinion but just beautiful moment tender tender moment and he just connected with this the interviewer asked him about this moment that his dad waved or acknowledged him and then disappeared and Jean just starts breaking down and then he just lifts himself up and he says it’s only been 65 years you know and everyone laughed or whatever but I I bring that up because again the sense of being a burden keeps
(42:14) reemerging it doesn’t go away >> and that’s the problem people say oh no I’ve done I’ve dealt with my story I did six therapy sessions I wrote a letter to forgive somebody and I’m done. And it doesn’t. It never goes away. It’s how do you learn to integrate something and journey with the pain, not to try to run from the pain.
(42:33) >> I’d love to do something with you. Okay. >> Can we get a blank page? >> Yeah. >> So, with the anxiousness of asking, let’s just say that the anxiousness and the sense of being a burden was a 10 and then your friend help you reframe it. >> How far down on a scale of 1 to 10 has the has the scale dropped? Uh, 5.5.
(42:51) >> 5.5. So, we’re at four and a half. [laughter] Okay. >> No, I was thinking we’re at 5.5, right? >> Oh, yeah. 5 5.5. Okay. So, let’s let’s imagine that we could drop that even further. >> Okay. >> How many more interviews? How many more email lists? How many more people could help you? And I’ve got an exercise with you that I would love people to to play with.
(43:09) >> So, again, this is not rehearsed. We hadn’t planned this. I definitely hadn’t planned this, but we’re going to have a go. I want you to imagine somebody who is struggling in life. Okay, but it’s a it’s a fictional character. It’s not a real person. It’s not your like your family member.
(43:27) It’s not a friend, a buddy. I want you just to kind of think like just connect with the world and just think about and connect as best you can. We’re doing this in real time, so it’s not going to be perfect, but I want and I want you when you’re ready, I want you to begin to draw that person. I don’t want you to get write any words or numbers. I just want you to draw.
(43:44) And this is going to be a stick figure. It’s not about apologizing about your art. I just want you to draw this person. This is a human being that is somewhere in the world. You have not met them yet, but they’re struggling in one form or another. >> Can you just start just start drawing? This is either going to work really well or it’s going to go south. I don’t know.
(44:11) >> So, this is your person here? >> Yeah. >> Give them give them hair. Give them. Are they a man or a woman? Uh, >> they’re a man. Guess they’re >> They have kids. >> Uh, no. No, they’re not very happy. >> Give them a Give them a name. >> Uh, the name is Andy. >> Okay. How old is Andy? >> 20. >> And what is Andy struggling with right now? >> He’s on the outside.
(44:40) >> Outside of whom? >> Community. Uh I mean it drew other people. >> Yeah. >> Cuz he suffer from that. He’s sitting and he’s watching from a distance. >> Okay. >> And >> so what does he feel? What is he feeling? >> He feels uh alone and lost. >> Alone and lost. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Anything else? >> I think hopeful. >> So there is some hope.
(45:08) >> There’s something there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There’s a little bit of um hope and like determined. >> Yeah. >> What’s inside as in what what gift if we go back to the the analogy of here? We don’t want to get into a story necessarily, but what gift might he have that he’s unaware of? He maybe has a sense of it, but he’s not entirely sure what it is.
(45:32) >> Yeah. Like a an capability or a purpose or being meant for more. Okay. >> Capable of more. >> So, a sense of being destined for more, capable of more, um, but just not knowing maybe how to get there. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Does this relate to you at all? I >> think so. Yeah. >> Okay.
(45:52) So, so I would invite people to do if if you’re watching this, it’s pretty self-explanatory what’s emerging. If you’re not watching this, Nathan has drawn a a person sitting on a chair um, and has written down the words and so on and so forth. And this person is is on the outside of of the community, so to speak, etc. And I’m just curious your book.
(46:11) >> How could your book help Andy? >> Yeah. I mean, I think about a lot of the people that I’m trying to reach would be someone who I’m not trying to convince anyone to build wealth or um >> but let’s just stick to Andy. Forget about people just for a moment. Just stick how can you how can your book and your message in the book maybe not every every chapter, every every word, but how could your book specifically help and >> just give them the path and the road map? >> Oh, just the path. Oh, sorry.
(46:37) Just the path and the road map. Oh, that was gonna be something more profound to be honest with you. Can you write road map and and and and the path and the road map? And can you write the word just because that’s really relevant here? [laughter] >> Can I now? >> H. No, no, no. You’re not you’re not ready to do that yet.
(46:55) You haven’t done the word. [laughter] So, here’s here’s a really interesting thing, and this is where either one, the podcast is never produced, [laughter] I never edited, and it never sees the light of day, and even if it does, I’m never coming back. I can guarantee you that. And my family have to move out of the house tonight because we’re >> Is how selfish of you not to ask people for help.
(47:16) >> Because you are abandoning this poor man. >> Yeah. >> How selfish of you. [laughter] You are abandoning this man. And what’s also fascinating, if I may be a real >> is when when it comes to the things that we are about to gift the world of or give to the world, we use increasingly diminishing language.
(47:37) And yes, it’s just a word, but it’s not just a word. It’s the word just. >> I’m just a mom. Good God. >> Yeah. >> I I brought a human into this world. I carried them for for for nine months and I and I brought them into this world and I’m just a mother. We use diminishing increasingly diminishing language to describe the things that we do so naturally.
(48:04) And one of the challenges I my experience is with creatives which I know you serve a lot of is that they don’t put a value in what they do naturally. They’re too busy trying to put a value in what they think the world wants from them. what the world wants from them is the thing that they do most naturally, but we don’t put a value on that.
(48:21) When I was my mother met a group of my clients once. I said, ‘What do you think of what your son does? And she goes, I have no idea. He’s a coach. She goes, what’s that? He’s a speaker. She says, “What do you mean he speaks? What does he speak about?” She goes, she said, “But what do you mean?” And and one of them just said, “He sits down with people and he asks them really simple, challenging questions.
(48:38) He listens deeply. He doesn’t even listen. He hears them and he sees what’s possible for them.” Ah, he’s been doing that his whole life. [laughter] When I was 12, I was doing this work. >> People would come to me with all their challenges. Do you think I honor that? You think I honored the 12-year-old? No. I spent the next 30 years running around the world trying to make money because my story was when I make enough money, then I’ll give myself the freedom to go what I want and and do what I want to do. So, here’s my challenge to you and
(49:07) anyone else who’s watching this is do this. Create this little avatar. I think an avatar is even too cold a word to use to describe Andy because it’s so much more depth to it. And then ask yourself when you were afraid to produce that podcast, when you were afraid to deliver that talk, when you were afraid to take up that little camera and record a video and share a message, here’s the question you ask yourself.
(49:30) Am I turning my back on Andy? >> Am I turning Am I abandoning Andy or am I serving him? And that detachment, sorry, it’s not detachment, but that separation, there’s that moment of separation allows you to make a decision so you can be brave because what you’re going to say matters. And it may not matter to you, but it matters to him.
(49:50) And there are millions of Andes all over the world that you don’t you haven’t even met yet. So my my my invitation is stop being selfish because it’s not about you and make it print this off and put this on your desk. Look at this image >> and then make the call. Look at this image and send the email.
(50:07) Look at this image and put it in. Put your book out into the world because your book now he can draw a line through adjust. Your book will show Andy the path and the road map. The thing that stands out to me so much is you asked about the our scale, right? The uh you know the anxiety of you know we’re at a 10 versus a one of making that ask >> and you know thinking about the impact and all of that.
(50:34) You know, I said you got me under like a 5.5, something in that. That’s where we’re hanging out on the scale because I’m thinking about this reframe of what is selfish, right? Because if there was a a selfishness scale or maybe it’s a teeter totter or a seaside, I don’t know what the the analogy is, but I think where I got to was back to neutral >> where like, oh, because the the self-promotion of promoting my book and my ideas and all of that because it’s about impact, it’s not a bad thing and maybe even it’s a good thing, but in
(51:12) what you’re saying, what I hear is it tips the other way. Yes. >> Where it’s like it would be selfish not to. >> Absolutely. 100%. >> And that’s such a huge difference, right? >> Yeah. >> And so, yeah, I’m going to write that down. [laughter] >> It would be selfish not to ask. >> 100%. >> Okay.
(51:31) If we go back to the entrepreneur on Dragonstone, >> right? He wants to build his gym. He has his goals. He has his short-term financial goals he’s trying to achieve. He has these other things. He’s like, “Should I go? Should I pitch? If I were to pitch, I’m taking up space. I’m doing this thing. Maybe I’m taking a spot that another entrepreneur could have.
(51:50) Is my ideas is it worthy of the time or all of that? And those are all like I think very valid questions when you’re focused around the short-term outcomes. >> Yes. >> But then when you go all the way to like, okay, what is your story? What is your gift? And how do you bring that impact through to the world? Then >> you know some he’s like ah should I go on dragons then or not? Like it would be selfish not to.
(52:12) >> Absolutely. The the way I often think about evolution for people and and definitely my own evolution and is the idea of mountains. I’m a big mountain analogy guy. I love mountains. I love hiking and I’ve been using it forever. And mountain one is is really about was all about me. It was all about Philip Mccernin.
(52:31) And then mountain two was about us. It was about, you know, creating a family and and and and and building something with a team. And a lot of entrepreneurs get get stuck on that second mountain. they just they they overstay their welcome often. And then mountain three is about them is about how do I impact the world? It’s almost suspending a little bit of my self-interest or redirecting my self-interest and saying how do I make the rest of my life about other people about the impact that I want to make.
(52:54) How do I help the Andes of the world? And while I like you talked about earlier on that you oscillate in and out sometimes of these of this you know connected sense and senses trust when I’m in that them sense it’s almost like and it sounds so arrogant. It’s almost like everything I put my hand to seems to kind of work.
(53:14) There’s an effortless or it just feels effortless and then it feels simple. And then when I get scarce and I come back into the kind of the me and us energy, things become arduous again. And as soon as I put myself back into the them energy, it is it is unbelievable the shift that happens and the sense of courage that emerges in my body because it’s not about me anymore.
(53:34) I’m thinking about um sports again and thinking about the the player that you were coaching and working with and you know we just watched a uh a World Cup game and we’re talking about you know the flopping that happens or you know it’s always entertaining to see something happen and not get called and then like seven players come over to the ref and and it’s amazing that they’re allowed to >> yell at the ref as much as they do and you know sometimes there’s a card for it or whatever but there’s like you see teams
(54:04) play to win. You see teams play to not lose and you can see like those dynamics change so much. And I’m imagining if you were playing just to play and so you’re in the game and the flow of the moment and what you’re imagining is you think about, okay, how do I want to show up for the kid in Philadelphia who’s watching? Am I going to be go yell at the ref the fact that my ankle got clipped and he didn’t get a No, I’m not going to do that.
(54:30) That’s not who I’m going to model. If I if I get fouled and I’m on to the next thing, I’m not thinking about how unfair that is. I’m thinking about how I want to press forward and play, I can let go of all of those things. >> Yeah. >> Because I’m thinking about something entirely different. >> I worked with a gentleman from uh who played in the UK, played in England, and I remember having a deep rich conversation with him.
(54:51) And something else that will relate to a lot of your listeners and and people who watch is the idea of becoming visible. And visibility I think for a lot of people I think we want to be visible but it scares the out of us. And visibility for me is like having a foot on your accelerator and there’s one just resting on the brake.
(55:06) And I think visibility we’ll all kind of bravado and we’ll say oh yeah I want to be more visible but actually deep down we’re really scared or we want to be visible in a very controlled way. I want you to see me in a way that I portray rather than all of me. And I I’ll never forget talking to this amazing young man and we talked about hiding and where do you hide in life? And he said, “I I used to hide in the pitch.
(55:27) ” >> And I went and and I I like I’ve heard a lot of things like I’ve volunteered in maximum security prisons. I’ve consulted and and had conversations in the Pentagon. I’ve worked with some of the most successful entrepreneurs. I’ve worked with amazing athletes. And I said, “Excuse me? What do you mean you’re hiding a pitch?” >> He said, “I would thousands of people I would put my hand up to receive the ball and I would stand a yard to the left or a yard to the right.
(55:49) So make sure that I was in a position where I couldn’t receive the ball. I wanted to be seen to wanting the ball, but I didn’t want to receive it because I was afraid that I would make a mistake in front of 60,000 people in the stadium and maybe whatever x amount of millions people watching, hundreds of thousands, etc.
(56:06) that you can hide in the most public place. >> And I thought that was absolutely and utterly extraordinary that he was so scared of making a mistake that he would hide in such a profound way. Okay. So, if I were listening to this, there’s there might be someone listening and maybe this is just a story that I’m telling myself is like, how do I make sure this is the most value for the listener or whatever else of like two things come to mind.
(56:33) One would be okay, but how does this directly help me? You know, I’m a content creator. How does this directly achieve my goals? >> And then the second one would be like, if someone’s on board with us, I’m like, okay, but how do I actually do it? like how do I uncover the story and dig deeper, right? If they’re not at at a place where they’re like, “Oh, I clearly know my story gift and impact.
(56:53) ” >> Yeah. Well, I think I think there’s a very simple exercise that I do which, you know, I would encourage everybody to sit down and and write out their story. Um, with the view that it’s never going to be read by anybody else and it’s never going to be published, but just write your story.
(57:07) And your story is not, as I said, the soccer player, the highlight reel of his of his of his of his career. It is your story is about I was I was six or I was eight and I remember growing up in whatever city it was and I had two brothers and two sisters and I remember feeling like this and giving yourself permission to write your story and remember your story through the lens of your story.
(57:26) But there’s another exercise which we’ll get on to right now and this is a kind of a maybe a fasttrack way of looking at your story and one is to write down the three happiest days of your life. So the three a happiest days is an exercise I’ve done. You can expand it to about five, but the whole idea is just to kind of get it to look back over your life.
(57:50) Now this this is this this instruction is really really critical. >> Okay, >> this is not about finding days that are euphorically happy from 9:00 in the morning till 9:00 at night because you 9:00 at night because you probably won’t find those anyway. >> Number one. Number two is it’s not about feeling the societal pressure to write down the days that society tells you should have been the happiest.
(58:08) So for example, the wedding day, the birth of your child. It could be, right? >> But it shouldn’t doesn’t have to be. And in fact, I would almost encourage you not to. And write down these days. And it could have been a fleeting moment. It could have been an hour. It could have been an afternoon.
(58:22) It could have been something. And to write down three of the happiest days. >> Should I write down like not a full day? >> Yeah. Or or we could do it differently. You could you could write down your three happiest days. >> Okay. Um >> which might be a bit more fun. >> Let’s do Let me do Let’s do both. Um so let’s go. I’ll go here.
(58:39) This is like the our rules. Not a full day or it doesn’t have to be a full day. >> Yeah. It could have been a moment in that day. It could have been an hour. It doesn’t have to be a full day. >> And then you said skip the cliches. That’s how I would phrase it. >> 100%. They’re not as relevant as you might think they are in the context of understanding because what we’re looking for is life leaves clues.
(58:58) We’re looking for the clues. >> So if you’re okay with it, just what are a couple of days when you reflect over your life? Um, oh, I’d have to think about this more. Um, okay. So, I first I appreciate the Well, the first thing I would say is like if you’re writing it out when you say write your story, like it doesn’t have to be in public and all of that.
(59:18) >> And that gives a lot of freedom and then also the skip the cliches. Yeah. You know, so in this case, since we’re doing it in public, we’re very clearly skipping the cliches that we’ve already named. >> So, I don’t know if this gets at what you’re trying to get to. So, we’ll do it and then then we’ll see.
(59:34) Um, last week, uh, I was flying at sunset over the Sachi Mountains, which you got a chance to see Red Fish Lake and and all of that. >> Uh, and I just had this like, how is this my life moment where, you know, I’m flying a plane I I own with skills that I learned myself, you know, and and all of this.
(59:55) And it’s like just kind of a casual afterwork thing. Like I planned that I was going to do that like three hours earlier, you know. >> Yeah. Um, I think another one, uh, we’ve talked about this one because I made I made an Instagram reel about it, >> but I just a few months ago or a month ago delivered my keynote at Craft and Commerce and it was a culmination of things I worked on, you know, for to be able to talk about for a full year and all this and I was so proud of how it went and we the team nailed every part of it and I was proud of my delivery and
(1:00:31) and everything house and I didn’t see this in real time because of the stage lights on me and all of that but afterwards two friends Barrett and Cara texted me photos one from AC like the front of front of house shot and it was me on stage and then Oliver my 14-year-old off to the side because he was volunteering at the conference just watching me and like he’s he’s fully involved the weird like he’s not sitting in the audience he’s like standing off to the side kind of leaning against the railing And then the other photo was the same
(1:01:04) shot but from behind looking over his shoulder to me on stage. Uh and that was something where I was like, “Oh, wow.” >> It was so incredible to have him be a part of my world to not just think, “Oh, dad spends all this time sitting on a computer.” Like to see for him to be able to see what we’re building, the hundreds of people impacted by it, maybe get some ideas for what he’s doing himself.
(1:01:27) And like it was such like those are two photos that I will cherish forever. >> Beautiful. If you if I may, maybe one from >> further back. >> Further back. >> Yeah, because these are all very recent. >> How far back are we going here? >> Far back as you can. >> Um, I have a bunch of different examples of this, but um, we had a shop growing up.
(1:01:52) My dad built the house that we grew up in. I have a lot of very fond memories of building projects that are doing things with my dad and >> uh yeah so that go back to when I was >> and what were you what were you building give us an exact can you give me an example >> think about like building a deck >> and actually another example was I’ve always loved landscaping >> and so there’s an area by the house like in the corner of the house growing up of like landscaping like putting rocks and boulders in there and
(1:02:21) >> with your dad >> with my dad. Yeah. >> Yeah. And did you help out? >> Oh yeah. >> Were you in the way? >> No. It was quite useful. >> Yeah. [laughter] So she so you weren’t you weren’t necessarily a burden. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So it’s what’s interesting is to remind ourselves that while we have evidence to prove in our in ourselves in a story to say we were a burden, we also when we look at our five happiest days or three happiest days or 10 happiest days that we also find begin to find evidence that we weren’t necessarily a burden. The
(1:02:46) idea behind the the happiest days is to remind us of the things and the next part of this is we talked about they don’t have to be full days. We talked about that we don’t they don’t have to be cliches and the next part of it is that we pick one. You know we can identify one. We don’t have to do it right now but pick one and and then pick another but do the same thing is why was it the most important day or why was it one of the happiest days like what was it? Because when you look at it say flying I was in an airplane whatever but
(1:03:10) what was it? >> Like what was it? What was the deeper emotional reason or rationale behind it that made it a day that you would write it up there? What did it represent to you? >> I mean, if running with that as an example, um, uh, it’s the culmination of so many things and coming back to my roots. So I think as an adult you don’t learn a lot of new skills very deliberately and you know like out of college you don’t take tests you don’t do these things and like getting your pilot’s license and an instrument rating and everything on from
(1:03:42) there like >> you it’s it’s a lot and it’s like concerted effort and so this idea that I can always learn new skills everything that I want is you know I can learn a skill to achieve it has been a great example of that um >> everything I want I can learn a skill to achieve it you say these sentences you just skip over them as if what ice cream did you order? Oh, well it was vanilla.
(1:04:03) Maybe it was chocolate. And you just land these truth bombs and yet they’re so extraordinary. Like that’s not everyday thinking, right? So, so the whole idea is to identify the days, pick the day, and then ask yourself why was it, what did it represent? And then the final phase is how do I create more of those days? >> Yeah.
(1:04:22) So, actually there’s two other parts of this. So, one is the skill and being really proud of that and the world that I unlocked. The second is the honestly the money of being able to afford that and getting to a point where like I can just do that and it’s a plane that I own and all of that. But the third thing is when I landed at this little grass runway uh up in the Saut Mountains, there’s someone who works there from the Idaho Transportation Department who maintains this runway.
(1:04:48) That’s his job. And they have cars that has a pilot you can just check out and take. They’re saying we’re going to Red Fish Lake. And he’s like, “Oh, have you been there before?” And I said, ‘Yeah, I think I’ve been there. And I’m like running through it in my head. I think I’ve been there 32 of the last 36 years, even in all of this like crazy world and doing all these things.
(1:05:06) It was still grounded in like my childhood, like who I am, the Idaho mountains, you know, I’ve backpacked all over those mountains. I’ve been, you know, all of those things. And and so like the culmination of all of those together is what made it really, really special. >> What a lot of people do is they get stuck in the money piece in the middle.
(1:05:24) And it’s great to be abundant. It’s great to to be a capitalist. It’s great to bring money into your life and be abundant with it and help other people and help yourself, etc. But the piece I loved is when you linked it back to childhood is that people get obsessed with making enough money so I can buy a plane.
(1:05:39) What I hear from you is, yeah, I’ve I’ve earned this. I’ve used this to to to buy a piece of equipment. I’ve learned the skill. It gives me the freedom to go to a place that means something to me. And I’m imagining when you landed there and you spent the day, the afternoon, the morning, you got back in the plane as a better human being. you got back in that plane having kind of just recommitted or reconnected with a part of yourself and I think that’s the point.
(1:06:03) So the the the exercise in itself is about reminding you of what is important, >> why was it important, and then the simple flip is how do you create more of those days? And for me, when I did this exercise years ago with my wife, >> her first one was her wedding day. >> Mh. And my first one was my stag party or my bucks party, which might sound kind of unusual, >> where I brought 25 guys to the west coast of Ireland um to where we now are stewards of this castle and we did a workshop and we did a hike and I remember looking back over the landscape on this 5,000-y old green
(1:06:40) road and I got a friend of mine come in and do like a personal growth workshop and some of these guys were walking this green road, this ancient road like 5 and a half thousand years ago. people would walk this road or or or maybe be on horses and uh they were having conversations about, you know, leaving relationships that were dysfunctional.
(1:06:58) One guy stopped smoking and one guy left his job that he hated and I remember thinking just for a fleeting moment. Wow. I helped create this container. >> Yeah. And then the next happiest day was a day I spent in the in the orphanage. And when myself and my wife came together and and and and shared our lists, hers was the second happiest day for her was the day in the orphanage.
(1:07:21) It’s like I didn’t know that that meant so much to her. She had no idea that meant so much to me. We talked about it and we set out and we created a mission that we were going to build an orphanage in a place that we love, which is the sacred valley in Peru. >> And we did. and with the help of other people and your your friend Dan Martell and myself he was down on the trip with us in that >> and this is such a simple exercise it’s all it’s so simple there will be people listening and watching this going come
(1:07:47) on guys surely can give me something more sophisticated this is a reminder like you going back to the lake of what is important to you and why it’s important to you but it also can inform who you want to be and the things you want to do in the world and for me the first time I created a body of work in Ireland was inspired by my happiest day which was my books party the 25 guys walking across this road.
(1:08:08) It brought them to the exact same road. I told them the story and I said, “You decide what your green road for your life is going to be.” So, it always leaves clues. We don’t need to get into the darkest days, but essent essentially the flip is the same thing. The way I describe this is that when I walk into my my my wife’s family home and I walk into the living room and there’s there’s photographs and there’s maybe a couple of certificates of, you know, maybe becoming an accountant.
(1:08:36) Um, and there’s photographs of all the girls that went to college on their graduation day. And that’s a big thing in their home, and it’s a big thing in many people’s homes. But how many of us have a photograph or an image of a catastrophe, of a failure, of something that went south, a broken heart, a shitty business, this business that fell apart.
(1:08:56) I’m not ask to literally go and create photographs and images for them. Well, I think we learn more as much if not more from some of the tougher times than we do from some of the happiest days. And the same principle is identify the darkest days, the most unhappiest days, whatever it is. Why were they unhappy? And how do we not create more of those days, but how do we eliminate those days for more people in the world? >> Oh, that’s quite the reframe.
(1:09:21) >> Yes. How do we >> how do we send the elevator down and help someone move through the same darkness that we had >> and or avoid it alto together >> because I was thinking about I didn’t know where you’re going with this cuz you’re like okay yeah how do we have fewer dark days and then that’s like that feels like something that you’re holding tight to and you’re like how do we make less bad thing fewer bad things happen to us >> and you’re like you can’t control that.
(1:09:50) >> Yeah. But this how do we eliminate these days for more people in the world? >> So something I don’t share very like you know lightly and I I’ve I’ve shared it rarely is I want to build a safe place for teenagers to come and to know who they are and to understand their story and to understand their gifts and to contemplate impact in the future at a stage when that’s the conversation I needed.
(1:10:13) I don’t know what school you went to, but when I walked down the school, the corridors in my school, there wasn’t a single door that had a little sign on saying, “Come in and get to know who you are.” >> There wasn’t a single door that said, “Understand the difference between your talents and your gifts.” There wasn’t a single door that said, “Come in here and just imagine what’s possible for you and for the world that you’re going to enter into.
(1:10:34) ” And I want to create a safe space that young men and women can understand who they are at an earlier stage so that I’m essentially creating the opposite of the lady pointing the finger at me going, I don’t know why you come here and you’re going to amount to nothing out there. So I would not have known that unless I got to this this this body of work here and these these questions like what are some of the most painful days that I have had in my life because they can inform who I want to become in the future.
(1:11:00) If you were to list out three or five darkest days, >> there’s some that you can really control and then others that you can’t at all. Is it Are you looking for things where you’re like, “Oh, this one I could actually control is the wrong word. You could help eliminate for other people.” >> And some you’re just like, “Oh, I I can’t like I guess I’ll show you a couple of mine because actually my friend Lars asked me a similar question as like just a couple weeks ago when we were together and I was like, so I had to think about it a bunch. But I I think
(1:11:25) about a time that I got very sick and like lost the ability to work and I so much of my sense of purpose or my essential sense of selfworth came from what I accomplish, >> right? And so that results in a whole bunch of depression. Um, another one is sometimes people joke or all of that about like the age gap between our kids.
(1:11:45) You know, we have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a six-year-old. And they’re like, “Oh, you know, a surprise baby or something like that.” And most times they’ll just laugh it off. Sometimes if you really irritate me with that then I will make you feel horrible about [laughter] like losing a child you know >> and I feel like if you know you give enough rope and I’m like oh I will >> you know so you think about like the child that we lost and then another one would be there’s some moments in the company right of people leaving and
(1:12:11) feeling like oh this is all falling apart but like losing a child >> whether through a miscarriage or later on like that’s something you can’t eliminate for other people whereas because the >> the being a 10-year-old listening to my parents fight about money and feeling like I’m entirely helpless in that is much more similar to your example.
(1:12:31) >> Yeah. >> And so, how do you filter between those? >> Yeah, it’s a brilliant question, and I’m not even sure I can answer it, but I’m going to do my best. >> For me, my deeper purpose in the world, my deeper why is to eradicate loneliness for as many people as I can before I die.
(1:12:47) And you’ll probably figure out based on this conversation so far that, you know, I’m a pretty deep thinker, a deeper human being in that in that sense that there’s a correlation between why that’s important to me and my own experience in life. Because really, if I had to sum it up, I think loneliness was the the thing that permeated most of my early early life.
(1:13:03) And I think loneliness is one of those really, really unnecessary feelings in life. And it’s also incredibly isolating. And I noticed Andy was was over here and the community was here. So isolation and isolation is not eradicated through Facebook followers or Twitter followers or even an office that’s full of people or even sleeping next to somebody at night.
(1:13:24) It is about is about something that’s much richer and much deeper. But when I think about eradicating loneliness for people, um it maybe eradicating is not even the right word. It doesn’t mean I create a dating app. So it’s not we’re not correlating like for like. It’s about creating environments where people can connect to themselves or something deeper.
(1:13:42) So it mightn’t be about the loss of a child, but it’s about the sense of of loss, the sense of of mourning, the sense of whatever. So imagining just hypothetically, you’re at your next company retreat and you decide for the first time, maybe maybe it’s the second, maybe it’s the fifth, maybe you’ve never shared this.
(1:14:00) You decide, I’m going to integrate this into my talk. I’m going to open up and I’m going to share this story at some point in the conference. >> And people say, well, what’s the purpose of that? That’s just a moment of selfishness. No, it’s not. Because where I go with that is how many people might be at a at a conference that you speak at? >> Uh, a few hundred or a thousand or something like that.
(1:14:19) >> There might be one person >> right >> in the back corner who lost a child >> and has never talked about it, has never opened up about it, is ashamed about it, is embarrassed by what, whatever the story is, I don’t know. And then the next minute they hear you share the story and they go, “Oh my god, I’m not alone.
(1:14:40) ” And then maybe as tears flow down their face, they turn to somebody in accounting next to them and they go, “What’s wrong with you?” And they she goes, “I lost a baby.” And that’s the first time they shared it because you’re not meant to share this stuff in a in a corporate setting or in a business setting or in a company setting. And that person then sees them and they see seen.
(1:14:58) They feel seen and heard and complete. When I wrote the one last talk, it wasn’t for speakers. It was for people who don’t believe they have a story. And my Andy is Peggy from Yellow Knife. I’ve never met met Peggy and I’ve never been to Yellow Knife. And don’t ask me where she came from and why Yellow Knife.
(1:15:17) The reason that that was so important to me was that I wanted Peggy to be able to watch a YouTube video or read a book and to hear a story and go, “Oh my god, that story matters. If that story matters, is there a possibility that maybe my story matters? And if my story matters, then I matter. And then I want to create an environment for Peggy to be able to share that with one other person in her life to be brave because she matters.
(1:15:45) >> That’s how you give the gift through the pain that you went through to alleviate somebody else so they can feel seen and feel heard and they can allow that to move through them to some extent. And I’m realizing that the the idea of your greatest gift lying next to your deepest wound, you can’t even explore if that’s true for you if you don’t like the the first step in exploring if it’s true for you is to dive into what >> what are these darkest days.
(1:16:13) It’s a very I mean it’s a a gentle a gentler way of asking like what are your deepest moments? >> I mean in a in a corporate setting we’ve literally brought into a company setting. I mean Robert Glazier who you and I both know brought me into his company. I basically facilitated the process, coached everybody, and we have heard situations, let’s just use use Peggy and Andy, let’s they say they work together, but they don’t like each other.
(1:16:35) Peggy’s in sales and Andy’s in accounting, and they just bounce off each other. They hear each other hear each other’s stories and Peggy goes up to Andy and go, “Andy, honestly, I’ve literally heard this, Andy, I got to be honest with you. I’ve actually always thought you were an but is there any chance you and I could go for a cup of coffee next week because I’d love to get to know you a little bit more?” And that’s the power of sharing your story.
(1:16:56) Sharing your story is not a burden. We use that as an excuse so we don’t have to share our story. The reason that we do that is because we don’t want to be seen. And yet we deep down desperately need and want to be seen and to be heard truly at a very deep level. And when you do that, people see the humanity in you. And as I said earlier on, they see their humanity in themselves.
(1:17:14) And that’s what creates connection. And I think even taking it further and and going to the the world that we’re in of, you know, working with content creators and knowing so many of them and all of that is you have the the gift of being able to do this at scale. >> Yeah. >> Where it’s not just the hundred people in the room.
(1:17:34) Like if you were to tell these stories, then maybe it gets watched by 100 people and one of them is touched by it. Or maybe it’s 10,000. Maybe it’s so many more who say, >> “Oh, I’m not alone. I act in this way.” >> And then the crazy thing is these stories spread and >> of course >> and everyone can see through the AI written content of the four ways to do X or that sort of thing.
(1:17:58) >> Someone told me once that if you want someone to really believe a lesson that you’re sharing, start with the painful time that you learned that lesson. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it makes it so much more applicable. And so, not only is it a way to have an impact in the world, but it’s a it’s a way to stand out and it’s a way to actually spread the message.
(1:18:17) So, this is amazing, Bill. [laughter] I’m so thrilled that we threw up some random pieces of paper and said, “Let’s let’s draw this out.” >> Well, thank you for for having me, but also thank you for sharing your wisdom and and allowing us to get a sense into your life. And to me, that’s that’s the most important thing here today.
(1:18:34) So, thank you for that. people want to follow any more of your stuff, what do you what do you have out there? Yeah, >> they go. >> Yeah, we do we do uh immersive retreats. We don’t do a lot of them. Um, as I said, we’re a small boutique company, but if people want to understand who they are in the world and what they’ve been put on this planet to do beyond what they can imagine for themselves, they can come to a retreat in a castle in Ireland as an example or come and adventure somewhere in the world.
(1:18:58) Um, and follow along philip mccernin.com. >> Sounds good. Amazing. Thank you so much, Philip. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. That was good. I got to give you a hug. >> If you enjoyed this episode, check out episode 115 with Justin Sua. He’s another incredible guest who’s worked with proathletes in the military, and it’s a great practical episode on what separates people who operate at the highest level.
(1:19:21) Like the video if you enjoyed it. Hit subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, [music] and I will see you next week.

Nathan Barry 播客第150期访谈 Philip McKernan 论起源故事的价值

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